#4: The Master Of Skyrocketing Organic Growth, Dimitris Drakatos

Dimitris: We tried to create content, that could, let's say, answer different stages, of our audience, different life stages. So we could then, once we got the rankings and the traffic, we could get a better understanding about, what performs best or not. At the same time, I'm a very big fan of, conversion rate optimization. So I think, you need, once you have the traffic, you need to start testing everything, testing the CPAs, testing the wordings, testing on the page, before saying like, okay, this content doesn't work for us.

Soren: Welcome to the Messy Growth Show, where we talk to founders and marketeers of software and manufacturing companies about their path to growth and challenge the conventional beliefs of what works and what does not to help you untangle the path to your growth. Your host on this podcast is Christian Jorgensen, and I am Soren Hansen. So let's get started with today's guest on the Messy Growth Show. Welcome to The Messy Growth Show, Dimitris we connected, I think about a year ago or something like this, and I've been curious about having you and having this conversation with you for a while because I think as we just spoke about in the, in the chat here before we record it, that you bring something to the table that's going to make everybody, including us, that deals with seo somewhat relieved, and that really relates to link building. And it's going to bring in something that think is fairly new. Not new in the business for those of you like you two meters that knows about it, but for the rest of us, Of called, content velocity. What is that? And then velocity implies something about a lot of content, and now you are into the space of actually running a group of people and organizing around this some reporting implications. We're gonna be talking about that. But before we do Dimitri, give us a brief rundown. I know when we connected you were at Peanut, but you probably have a pass before that and you are doing something else today. So how'd you get into seo?

Dimitris: Yeah, sure. So, my first touch point, regarding SEO was like, I think 10 years ago when I first started working, as a university student at that time. So I was working for a news media website and as an editor, and then, you know, I was writing, some news and then, I was kind of, briefly introduced to SEO n you know, instead of just, you know, social media and Facebook were at the very beginning. So organic rates was, you know, at 100%. There were no paid adss and sponsored posts at that time. But, at the same time there was, another way you could get, some traffic and it was organic. Organic cert. So it was my first introduction. I was feeling really great when, I realized that, with, following some best practices and, ensuring actually text, is great for the. You were for the visitor, but also for the, for the search engines at that time. I could see my work being at the first page of Google. So this was really fascinating and, it triggered me, it triggered me a lot. So that was my first at point. Then I spent some years working, on the full spectrum of the digital marketing field. But I think, the last six to seven years the, when I really, focused on SEO and over the past four years to, I've also added on my skillset, the observ optimization. So would say that the big turning, pointing, starting, around five years ago when I joined Workable as there in bond marketing specialist. I stayed for around two years there. Then, moved, like it was the, one of the, my biggest decisions, over my life so far. I relocated from Athens to London for Revolut. Joining the, newly established, performance marketing team is their, first global SEO manager. Although Revolut at that time had a huge, Growth. And part of it was almost actually was organic, but not organic, you know, from, an SEO perspective, but from, word of mouth, some referrals, some affiliates, and, you know, also the whole product was really great. So I stayed there for another year, then I moved to peanut. Stayed for two years. I think for With Peanut, we build, a great case study that, you know, I carry over now. I think we pin, we did some, really great, we moved from, obscurity to, more than 2 million organic, visits on a monthly basis in this 12 months, pure non-branded and with,great teamwork. So now I'm just, a newbie at the Fresh product, fresh app called Pair. So Paired is, a relationship, app, where, couples. Could, have, through gamification and other things, they could, boost their relationship and, tackle any problems they have or even if they don't have a specific problem on their relationship, they can even, get their relationship become better and better, through, experts advice in some ation. So I joined, at the end of this August. I'm just like, two months there. As their head of, an SEO. We have a lot of things to do. It's kind of, similar situation with peanut, like, I'm just here to. The journey of organic, acquisition. So I'm very excited. And hopefully we're gonna be here like, a year from now. We can talk about, my new case study with.

Christian: Sounds good.

Soren: You, just, mentioned that, at peanut you went from obscurity to a little over two, 2 million, visitors a.

Dimitris: Yep, that's right.

Soren: I mean, that is, and you did that in the period of 12 months.

Dimitris: Exactly.

Soren: I went in and I looked at some of peanuts, and you have made content on if you are looking for names for your boy or.

Dimitris: Yeah.

Soren: Italian names, English names, American names.

Dimitris: All the type of baby names.

Soren: Name listing for everything under the sun.

Dimitris: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, for peanut, like, the big challenge was that, we had nothing before. I joined, Michelle, the ceo and, the whole team was, wanted to bring a c, as, the top weapons in our arsenal, but at the same time we had nothing. And the, although there weren't direct competitors talking specifically about apps, there were other search competitors that have been, in the field for several years and have been investing in EO for several years. So we had the challenge of like, let's find out a way. To close this huge gap, in, a short period of time. So my approach was like, publishing velocity. So we try to build, topical authority and topic clusters, in a really fast way. But, on with the seren approach, we didn't pick, keyword randomly, but we tried to, group our keywords. Of course we had to find, you know, the best combination of like, Keywords that, would have a proper, search volume. So, being the top result there would translate to some, you know, decent amount of traffic and, it would move the needle for us and also showcase that we're doing something good and at the same time, the key difficult won't be, that huge. We could see, sooner. The results we were aiming for, baby names were, was kind of the unlocker for us. Of course, if someone takes it was, around 40 to 50% of the traffic total. But at the same time we were, also ranking for, thousands. Keywords that are not related to baby names, but baby names were among the top keywords is because of, their nature and, there's a high demand there. So yeah, we started, toy clusters and I recently, like, although I'm not there anymore, I'm, I've recently was taking, that, the suggest of Google now has like baby names and peanut, not to suggest. So, in like two years, we achieved to, associate Peanut with, baby names, peanut content with baby names. So, we build this, topical authority, which I think, it's a huge achievement. And yeah, the, if I would stay more there, I wanted, my goal would be to have, more, clusters being. Just like baby names associated, I mean, with peanut brand in general.

Soren: You mentioned this, velocity, and I mean people have probably heard about this before, but velocity means a lot of content in a short period of time, but that can be. What if I'm making two block posts a month? Now velocity could be 20 block posts a month, but I think you mentioned at some point you created, more than 200 pieces of content a month.

Dimitris: Well, we.

Soren: What is velocity, in your world?

Dimitris: Yeah, I think, I think I get this question a lot, regarding, how much content is good, for me to produce, how much content is optimal for ACL I think the answer like, the favorite phrase, ACOs. Like, it depends, so it depends, on multiple factors. But I would say that, in order to answer these question, you need to do your keyword and competitor research, understand your needs, and, the keywords that are there and they're. For you don't like, over the last few months, and specifically, I think over the past year, Google has made so many, broad algorithm updates and also, the helpful content update that, at the beginning it was like very, minor, but, the combination with the September's update was cruel for some websites. So I think, you don't like websites that try to, target low hanging fruits, you know, keywords that have, a lot of, search, monthly searches, but at the same time low with difficulty just to gather more, traffic. But at the same time, they're not related with their, needs. Peanut, for example, trying to, let's say, target something about, car parts. Just because we've seen some, really easy keywords there and with high traffic, it's not working, at all. So I think you need to make your keyword research and computer first understand, identify the keywords that you need to target. And based on this, you should plan your, content, accordingly. I would say that, website that have like five or six or even 10 pieces of content, are pretty low, on a monthly basis. I would say that 2025 is a good number for someone to start. Of course, this depends on the overall, keyword potential, the search potential, your keyword research. But yeah, with peanut, we've seen that there's, a huge amount of cures that we could target. Like we were actually targeting all the life stages of women. So from, fertility, pregnancy to, being a mother or even menopause. And we try to see, to create actually three pillars. The first pillar would be, the keywords that couldn't be. With other ones. And at the same time, they were combining, this amount research is and low your difficulty. Second pillar, which was, let's say the most, difficult to create, and the one that actually was the, that unlocked the traffic was the topic cluster. So how we could group find keywords that could be grouped together, create, a theme, a topic cluster, and then start building content around them. One of them were baby names and we also tried to. Dive even more deep into this. Like, we had the friends names and then, but we tried to also have friends, girl names, friends, boy names. So we tried to cover holistically, the topic and, everything around, this content. And the third one was like the brand one, for peanut. I wouldn't say that it was, a huge amount of keywords, but still there were some keywords, like how does pap work? Some fake use related equations. Even some silly ones not, you know, is spin, and up. So I think, these were important keyword because the searching that was pretty clear, straightforward, and we weren't there at the certs while. There were some, you know, medium articles or other, you know, reviews websites saying that peanut is good or peanut is bad.

Soren: I don't know if this was part of the, September update, but you're saying if you don't have a cluster, if you don't have a topic, then you will not get the benefit out of chasing low-hanging low competition keywords because cluster and the topic in itself needs to be covered before you can rank fast for the low-hanging fruits.

Dimitris: I would say that, topic clusters have been, through my whole career, you know, One of my, main weapons on my ar in my arsenal of, you know, how to rank, how to get more traffic. I've seen over the last two, three Google updates and, it makes total all sense that, websites that try to, target unrelated to their business terms just because, these terms are easy for them to rank and get some traffic and then they could, gain, they monetize this traffic throughout sensor or other, you know, means, we're kind of, We've, they've seen, eight degrees on their traffic just because, you know, it makes sense. Like if you have a website about, I don't know, baby names, it doesn't make sense for you know, to also rank for car parts because you're not an expert. You're just doing it for, you know.

Soren: Course.

Dimitris: Leveraging, some low hanging keywords. So I would say that the most important part is to make sure that, you know, you understand, your niche, your industry, and you focus on this keyword specifically. I'm pretty sure, you know, with extensive keywords that you could find thousands of keywords or hundreds of keywords that could work for you. Then based on this, let's say, keywords, directory, you could build your content plan and, you know, you can adjust your, publishing velocity.

Soren: Make sure that we get the clusters and the topics right, and I guess we can, we can make the topics as small or big as we want, but everything that around it, that covers the topic is what we need to focus on when we look for low hanging fruits, cuz that's gonna help.

Dimitris: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in some cases you could have keywords that cannot be grouped together, right? So you cannot have a topic cluster, around them, but at the same time, they're keywords related to your business, so that's totally fine for you to write about them. I would say just stay out of cures that, they're unrelated. And some people, some. Try to leverage them just because they're easy keywords. But, at the end, with, all this IT content and all this, competition, the website that has, the expertise, and builds topical authority is the one that it would win on the long run. Because even with Peanut, we were facing some problems regarding, to compete with websites that they already had in place, doctors or, other, Professionals who medically reviewed their articles or fact checked their articles. So we were pushing a lot to, add dysfunctionality on our blog. We try, we had some of our articles being medically or fact checked, reviewed, but, we still had a lot of work to do. So they're either now just because of the competition. Or she needs, something more than just, a good SEO they need, to see that you're an expert on the field. They need to read something and say like, yeah, this makes sense, this correct. I could even, apply these solutions and I won't say, oh my God. Why I've, followed these instructions. This goes anywhere like, just like ikea, you need to, construct your desk and you have your proper instructions. If the instructions aren't ready or they're not, let's say, 100 per, percent correct, and they're like, I dunno, 80% correct, you will end up with a problematic, solution. So this is something that, a brand don't want, and also Google doesn't want to, give you results that are not great.

Christian: How do you deal with this on scale images? I mean, you need high quality content. That is, especially in the areas where you published content is, if people do things wrong or you write something bad, people can get hurt and so on, and, but you still need to publish, what was it, two, 200 blog posts per. That's a, that's a tricky balance in my head.

Dimitris: Yeah. So, we didn't start at the beginning with, that high, number of arkins. We start with around 40 to 50, which is already pretty. I'm very in favor of working with people that have been working, before. So if I, my 2 cents here is like if you have a team of writers or if you have an agency or a freelance or in-house team that you have been working with before, and, they understand your principles and the overall a c o, approach, and they're good on what they're doing. Just, there's no need for you to change teams, just use them because it will save you a lot of time. At the same time. We tried to stick on again on, a specific number of people It was a team of in-house and, outsource rider, but we tried to keep it pretty strict. And try to, let's say test before we actually, onboard someone. Cause we needed.

Christian: Sure.

Dimitris: High standard. At the same time we introduce, stages of tech. I always create an issue brief, for its keyword. This brief, is like, comes from an individual research for this given keyword. I think, of course AEO has some basics that you could, apply on all articles and all, pages. But in order to stand out, you need to, handle its key individually understand, what the sector needs. When it's looking for this keyword, what are the com What is the competition, doing? I mean, for me it's like super important to make sure that, not copy the competition, but make sure that you have, the knowledge, you have awareness of what they're doing. Let's say, let's take a pretty simple, example, with baby names. Even if we did the best EO possible, out there, and we had a great writer, and everything was really great if we were, you know, publishing a post that had 50 great friends, baby names, and the top three result had like 200, 150 and 300. I mean, from my point of view, were already starting. With lower chances to rank high, just because our content is not enough to alter competition.

Soren: What, because when you mentioned the example you mentioned here is in terms of type of content, but also in terms of, how lo how big an article it needs to be.

Dimitris: I am. I would say, I would say not just, long an article could be, but, the approach of the article what type information it has, I never say an advice, companies or writers to write, you know, two or 3000 words. This for writing, in long form content, I'm always saying that, this, write an article. Once you read it, you'll be okay. I don't need to hit the back button and move to the next, search result as long you, answer them the query with your, article. Even if it's like 300 words, it's fine. I'm just saying that, there are, there are always some hints when you check the competition. So if you are searching about, the top honeymoon destinations for Europe and you have a list of 10 and the whole, you know, the top five results 30, 40, 50, 60, then from, a marketeer perspective, from marketers design, this results stands out more than yours. So you already start the race you know, a bit behind. So I'm always taking in this, I'm creating issue brief. This issue brief has all these, things that, I want the writer to take inconsideration in order to, let's say create the best available content up there. Then the state is like ready for you, for the writer to pick. Once the a u brief, is ready, the writer picks the brief works on the, on the article. Then we have the draft review. C o reviews the draft. And if the draft is okay, and there's nothing, not change, it's required. No comments from an EO perspective. Then the next step is, for, another part of the team of the, of the content inhouse. Either it's like brand or like, your content mines are depending on how small, how big, your team is to check in order to see, are we following, the brand manual? Are we using, the terminology that we want to use our, you know, over brand is there. So was our approach and at the same time we also tried to use, some experts, that we have been collaborating in order to, review some very. Difficult, topics, sensitive topics for us. But the more time we were spending, with the same writers, the more, the more articles we were producing and the more revisions we had in their drafts, the better they have been becoming. So at the end, it was, mostly a matter of timing me and the whole team to, do the research, create the briefs, review and actually upload the article because the uploading is also, a very time consuming activity.

Christian: Demetris one. One question I get very much from B2B sales founders, like, where do I find good content people? Because myself personally, I have tested. Hundred plus different content writers and the qualities, you know, everything from really crabby to amazingly great. But I haven't, you know, found this consistent source of like, where to find good talent with this, on, you know, at least on your outer team, not your core team. Any thoughts on that?

Dimitris: That's a good question. Very tricky. I think you described it really, you know, great. There are a lot of writers out there and you could find really awesome ones, but at the same time, you could, some lazy ones. Some people that. Really great writers, but they're not understanding aco. They don't want to understand faced, both sides. So I think, talking specifically for, SEO content, I think you need also to focus on the writer that is not just a good, on writing, but also he or she's good on understanding, the overall, SEO approach on an article text from the text structure from, including some keywords or some, a FAQs. And the overall, you know, thing I would say that, from my experience, referrals, so, you know, Word of mouth is something that worked really great for me. So personally, I have been referred to, an agency, which is called K Y O. And we have been in, I have been working with them since my level days. And it's like my first recommendation when someone asks me about, you know, you have any recommendations regarding, a good content writer or good content writers? So this content agency is great, Matt. The owner is a good friend of mine after like, almost three years of working together multiple projects. But I mean, it's just an agency, so I wouldn't recommend this agency for everyone.

Christian: Sure.

Dimitris: That. In most cases you could refer to other people inside the industry that you respect. So other SEO guys that you admire their work and you say, do you have someone to recommend? So I'm a bit in favor of, already let's say, tested, people and try not, you know, to find, new and tip solutions. No. I think.

Christian: Oh.

Dimitris: The pitfall that, a lot of people have, faces like, They try to, save money from, onboarding, a writer and they say like, yeah, we could use Upwork or, some other, websites that they have, content writers. Or they could use some, websites that they have, they just assign the keyword, to a writer. But at the end, the whole edits and back and forth that you, end up doing like, costly. So I would say try not to find the cheaper one. Try to find the one that, will help you, for the long round and. Some tips on how you can do it. It's like, as I said, just refer to, two, three guys that you respect from the industry and, you know, directly asking like, I'm in need of, you know, a bunch of writers or writer. Do you have some of it? You have worked and you can recommend? So Stephan is this, if you don't have, or if you want to, let's say, hire someone resist in talks, or you just open up a position, I would say definitely ask him or hear for some, examples of the work. And you know, I mean, at the end of the day, if they're doing, good work with work, they would have some examples and they say like, okay, you have some examples to share regarding, articles yet that you have written. And they're, pretty high on the rankings and you can understand, very easy how they, approach, the whole thing.

Christian: True. Good points. I've interviewed a ton of writers over time, and I've kind of like, I know it's a bit black and white, but split them in two groups. There's like the people that understand seo, of course, they all understand SEO Great, to some degree. But then there are the ones that also understand conversion, because, we actually want people to do something when they go to our site. So I completely agree with, you know, testing them. Show me some content you've done. Did they put in cultural actions or whatever? Or did the blog post just end up in like nothing space? Or was there actually, download our app or what, whatever it is. So it can at least contribute to bringing in, to growing the business.

Dimitris: I think, I think you said it all. I think at the end of the day, I mean, we're talking about traffic and increasing, the numbers there, but at the end of the day, you just need to, translate these traffic to, leads, sales, revenue.

Christian: Yes.

Dimitris: Whatever is your main goal. And kpi, The most important one is to have some sample, that you can analyze. Like for example, for Peanut, we had nothing. So we tried to create content, that could, let's say, answer different stages, of our audience, different life stages. So we could then, once we got the rankings and the traffic, we could get a better understanding about, what performs best or not. At the same time, I'm a very big fan of, conversion rate optimization. So I think, you need, once you have the traffic, you need to start testing everything, testing the CPAs, testing the wordings, testing on the page, and, you know, before saying like, okay, this content doesn't work for us. This, make sure that you have tested everything. You tried everything. And then. Yeah. If it doesn't work, then there's no need for you to, invest time and money there. Just focus on some other con like for workable, for example, it was a very mature business, by the time I joined. So what we were doing with the content team back then was like, okay, we know that, there are like two, three types of content at work. Let's find out what brings, the higher sales. We try to some reports, with showcase that, a specific topic was, driving the higher revenue, even in plain numbers were, lower. So, you know, even if we had, let's say, 100 MQs from this type of content. And the other type of content had like, let's say five MQs. At the end of the day, the sales and the revenue from the second topic was, significantly higher. So we said like, okay, what else we could write? So we could do, you know, increase our revenue. But this, these decisions, this approach requires, definitely, a maturity that, you cannot have. It's impossible to have other first year of.

Christian: Sure.

Soren: Looking at the team, we've been talking about from zero to 2 million. We're talking about. What the team needs to look like and what the profile of content writers needs to be. And you've vaguely alluded to some reporting that we'll finish up with today, but also a lot of different competencies, right? So if you focus on generating the traffic in the beginning and creating the content, and then you do optimization for conversion to leads and MQs, that's probably a different person to have everything into one person that does seo. And this will make it increasingly more complicated to find people. What did the team look like, say at the end of.

Dimitris: Yeah.

Soren: What does that team look like? Because that could be quite complex to manage.

Dimitris: Yeah. Yeah. So, when I joined Peanut, the, there was like, almost no one, there was no, web team. It's because the product, mostly working on the actual product. So if we want, and the website was just like five or six pages home pages policy download, and our story, the more we grew, the better business case we were building in order to, have more resources. At the beginning we were kind of, sharing, a web engineer from the product team. But, at some point when, organic acquisition was. Pretty high. And, you know, the traffic graph among the higher and the better, reports that we could share. We ended up having like two web engineers for, handling, all the, technical, and by technical, I mean not just, technical aco, but also changes regarding, CTAs or adding specific CTAs on specific articles. So anything that needs to be done from, an engineering perspective to the, to the web pages. We had the person that was kind of, the web, in general as, a medium. So this person was mostly working on conversary optimization and, find ways. That can unlock, the traffic. So we had the traffic. We're also driving some paid, initiative. We're doing some paid initiatives and some, stuff. So we were thinking about like, okay, what conversion looks like? What if we first, you know, have a first step of, let's say, acquire some, emails and build some campaigns and then nurture, and then, even if there is no, direct download as a first date, let's introduce peanut. Because in most cases there are people who haven't seen peanut before, or they were testing, a web version, lighter version of the app on the web just to remove the friction. And try to offer this, option so we could see if there's, an impact on the converser rate. We had a con writer in house, con writer, a designer. So I think was, the most often, evolution of having almost no one to, building a web team that has, some engineering staff. They have someone to hand commercially optimization, someone to support the writing, but also understands seo so they could support, myself as well, on some basic SEO stuff. And a designer. In order to build, and maintain, web as, an acquisition, organic acquisition, you need to, have, the right people in the right places.

Soren: You were monitoring the whole, keyword and, making sure that this, and this content was created to make up the whole structure of the website and cover all your topics.

Dimitris: Yeah. A along with.

Soren: Then content writers. And you need designers, UX designers to help with AP split testing and making, and you need some technical people. When I do, when I do this, one of the things that I like to have is a guy that monitors what is not immediately, apparent on a page or across all pages. And that's the internal link structure, menus, and sort.

Dimitris: Yeah.

Soren: Media layer above all the content that's being written. I would like to have somebody do that because managing the whole scope of keyword analysis and content being created making sure that the internal linking and the reporting and the ab split testing, it becomes bigger than you actually realize. Quite.

Dimitris: Yeah, I know. I'm in favor of that as well. Like, would say that for me, I was working a lot also on, a lot more stuff like, apart from the content planning, keyword resetting and stuff, I was also monitoring the technical, a, the internal building. For me it was, among the top factors of success. We were, you know, leveraging at, this at most and also some offsite. At the same time, we need to, take into consideration that, when you work with a startup, it's all about funding and, you have some resources, when the series A comes and then, you, when you scale and you need to scale more, you just wait for the series B. So it's kind of, you know, you need to keep up the balance. So, if I would say, if you ask about like, you know, a series B team look like, at Peanut would be at least, two more guys, on SEO doing, you know, I'm in favor of like, all arounders, so I wouldn't say that, you know, you would have someone treat the technical part and then someone for the link building. Either it's like internal or offsite, I prefer someone that, is in probably, an expert on one field, but at the same time, it could definitely support, all the other elements because, you will, if not, you will end up with silent inside your own team, which is not great at all.

Soren: How many people that did you have on the team, including, it's hard to count if you're using an agency, but how many people did you have on the team at the end of 12 months?

Dimitris: Well, I would say it would be around, we were around 10 people, so, the external copywriters were around, six to seven. We had, in-house underwriter that were supporting the uploading internal building and some other, initiatives, myself for, a web engineer like the second joint after the first year. And, a designer. So I would say around 10 people, but.

Christian: Around 7, 8 of, so around seven, eight actual content writers producing around 200 pieces per month.

Dimitris: Yeah, I would say this was like the very top of our, production.

Christian: Sure.

Dimitris: Something that was happening, consecutively all the whole year. So I would say on average we were producing, for six months around, 300, 300 to 350 on a quarterly basis. So on average, 120 to 100 pieces of common monthly basis.

Christian: Okay, so around 15 pieces ish per copywriter, per month, basically. Pretty high.

Soren: Manage.

Christian: Actually. I mean, yeah, fair enough. I've.

Soren: I mean if it's, if it's not, if it's not, very technical, I got an industrial manufacturing customer and there's no way you could produce 15 pieces of content.

Dimitris: No, it totally, it totally depends on the, yeah, it totally depends. I have the same thing and talks, up there now because, somes require more research. So this, you know, this.

Christian: No.

Dimitris: Translates to more time. Some other are like more, you know, list formats and stuff, or like quotes or baby names. So they, you definitely need to do some research, but it's, pretty doable. So you need to have a fair split.

Christian: Sure.

Dimitris: Of content.

Soren: I, and I think also depending on your industry, you may or may not depend heavily on video, for example, but. In industrial manufacturing, it doesn't work so well. Talking about the.

Dimitris: Yeah.

Soren: Reading about it's a lot more effective to see it on video.

Dimitris: Yeah. Yeah.

Soren: And.

Dimitris: Good.

Soren: Video also takes part of a significant part of the production. Right. And the, and the cost. So it all depends because that has a big impact on conversion as well. Right.

Dimitris: Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think it totally depends. So, sorry, just to supplement this, it really depends on, what works for you. And at the end of the day, if, you know, I'm always saying that, you don't, have to sec you mustn't actually sacrifice, quality over quantity. So, You know, if you could produce just five pieces of content, but with the highest quality and making sure that these have the highest chances of ranking pretty high and converting, instead of writing 20 or 30, which, it's like.

Christian: No.

Dimitris: Average quality that you may end up ranking or not, then you'll go with the choice one.

Christian: True. Good point.

Soren: The world doesn't need any more content, but it needs better content.

Christian: Yes.

Dimitris: Think.

Soren: Dimitri, when you run a team like this and you go from zero, you start burning a lot of, cash and you have to wait in the best of, this is the nature of seo. You don't get traffic immediately. But you have to trust You're going in the, in the right. And as you get the traffic you need to make sure that it converts. So what does the reporting look like? Because the report reporting obviously changes as you go through.

Dimitris: Yeah.

Soren: The phases, but what did the reporting look like for you in the beginning and what did it look like for you in the end?

Dimitris: Yeah. So I always try to have, a staged, approach in terms of like, goals and KPIs. So, talking specifically, about peanut and, you know, having nothing prior, I would say the first, I'm trying to, have, an ideal world, a quarterly, splitted, reporting where, at the beginning we start with some KPIs regarding the technical SEO and the health of the website because this is also very important. I mean, there are like, lot of tools having, a health score, so.

Soren: Yes.

Dimitris: I'll try to have a KPI regarding the. Deliverables. So I would say, how much content we produce specifically for SEO for this quarter. On the next quarter I'm moving to, the total number of, non-branded on the region that you're targeting, as a first page result. And if you want to be even more aggressive, detailed, or, over challenging, you could have, a split between the first three spots and then the next ones. Because I mean, at the end of the day, the first three spots have the higher ctr.

Soren: The mow traffic.

Dimitris: Exactly. On the, on the next, quarter, of course it comes, the organic traffic, the non-brand organic traffic. Since, all this work that you have been doing on the first six months, translates to traffic hopefully. Then, as the last step, it would be, the conversions or like, depend depending on what you define as a conversion, if it's like an email capture or leads or whatever. This could be a hang, a framework. I'm trying to use, when I start, from 0.0 you know, as a. States, I would definitely add, revenue, payback and stuff that, you have, although there's always, you know, some master risks. For example, if you're not doing any commercial optimization. Even if you have, a conversions, KPI in reporting, then, you know, it's kind of, you're missing a big opportunity because if you, if you have the traffic and you're not doing anything regarding, you know, improving convers rate, maybe, you know, the traffic is in most cases, I think the traffic is not wrong. You're not, you know, capturing wrong traffic. You're just missing, an opportunity regarding how you can convert this traffic.

Soren: Yeah, so back to user intent and put in right, next steps for the, for the user, that is a logical course of action. I looked at your website, Dimitrius, you have shared some reporting suggestions if you let us know where we can catch up with you and reach you, including your own website because I think you have great in information, and help there for us. Trying to become even better at AEO and homework as good as you. So, take us there.

Dimitris: So, yeah, I'm, I have my personal website, which is dimitri drug.com. I'm feel, I feel a bit bad because over the past year haven't share, much information, because of a lot of things happening at my life, including, lastly my waiting. I think, for someone that needs to find me or, needs to ask me, the best option, the best medium would be LinkedIn, my LinkedIn profile. I'm very active there. I'm not that active as I want, but most people say that I'm really good and active, so I would. True. I'll take it. So my LinkedIn profile and then my website for, some information that I try to gather and, create some articles. I have already some drafts of, actual, guides about, like find I find that I found them really helpful over my career for the past, year. So I'm planning to publish them soon, so stay tuned.

Soren: We'll have, your links to your website and LinkedIn profile in the, show notes. So tune in to that. So thanks a million for your time, Dimitrius, and congratulations on your wedding. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of The Messy Growth Show Check out the upcoming guests on messy growth show.com. And you can subscribe on Spotify, apple Podcast, Google Podcast, and YouTube, And if you do have any comments, feedbacks, or suggestions of topics that are particular importance to you as owner, marketer in the software or manufacturing industry, please do reach out to us on messygrowthshow.com. We'll see you on the next episode of The Messy Growth.